Beginner XC Wing?

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RealtorHigh
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Beginner XC Wing?

Postby RealtorHigh » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:29 am

I'm looking for the next step up from my Buzz z3 to start doing XC flying more consistently. I was told the Rush 4 could be a good next step (Size Large - 109kg flight weight) - any thoughts, suggestions, comments?

Chris Ratay
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Mike Jobin
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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby Mike Jobin » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:46 am

Hi Chris,

The old saying is that; you should be pushing the limits of your current glider every time you fly it before thinking about moving up. This means that you are full bar on glides, getting the maximum performance from your wing. If you are not doing this, you are probably not ready to move up. But if you are using your current glider to its full potential already, then you are probably ready for an upgrade.

The rush 4, from the limited I have seen of it in the air, seems pretty hot for a B wing. It would be a good step up, but I would highly recommend taking SIV with your new wing. It does seem pretty dynamic and could bite you in the ass if your not ready for it. I recommend everyone look into taking an SIV session this season, whether you are on a new wing or not.

Just my thoughts,
Jobin

scotts
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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby scotts » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:30 pm

read here about rush4:
http://www.dhv.de/web/en/safety/safety- ... -b-part-8/

also parts 1-7 if considering other wings.
Scott S.
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RealtorHigh
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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby RealtorHigh » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:24 pm

Thanks Jobin and Scott. Jobin, I honestly don't use bar effectively. I'm trying to get better about it. Missed my second SIV last fall due to broken ankle (rugby) and would like to do one again this summer. Scott, thanks for the test results.

I'm asking for help, comments, and feedback, and appreciate everyone's time in helping... :-)

Chris Santaroce sent this link in FB which is a nice comparison of the B wings: https://www.facebook.com/Dustoftheunive ... 4604908487.

For those not on FB, when asked for his top 3 choices, this was Chris' comments: ....my absolute favorite for you like you would be the Gin Atlas we train on them and sell them to most every student – they also happen to have the best sink rate of just about anything we see at our hill. It's been around a while and we have no stories about it other then tons of people making their dreams come true – a few handfuls of local guys are on their second or third glider and have chosen the Atlas. The atlas X Alps is the lightweight and compact version which has been shown to have slightly better handling – ease-of-use and performance over the regular Atlas. My second choice would be the advance iota. It happens to be very light and very compact which might be nice for your traveling and as you can tell from the dust of the universe reviews – it has been identified as being one of the kindest with great performance. It was the personal favorite of Ziad. The guy behind dust of the universe – he proclaimed it glider of the year. Having said all of that – the most interesting thing about a glider is when you can have opportunity to test fly. We could make either of these gliders available to you…
Work..........Play..........LIVE!

Boulder P3 Pilot -- Just trying not to scare myself too much!

scotts
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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby scotts » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:59 am

Gin Atlas safety test: http://www.dhv.de/web/en/safety/safety- ... -b-part-6/ Personally, for flying at LO, unless you are more advanced and flying your wing every week, I wouldn't consider a glider that doesn't "self recover" especially on the two most common accident causing items: asymmetric collapse and spiral dive.
Also note this is the report that includes my glider, Mescal 4! :D

reluctantly offering my opinions here as I too am a beginner with only 250 flights... but, you titled this thread "Beginner XC wing" Beginner== EN A. When you consider higher rate EN B wings, you are trading small performance gain for safety. Are you really going to notice 0.2 better glide? or 3kph better speed on full bar (throw this advantage out if you dont use bar, or are afraid to, as almost all gliders are very close to same trim speed)? And how much will you notice an extra 100m to recover from an asymmetric collapse when you are close to the hill, as us beginners often find ourselves as we are learning how the heck to get up and out? 2 cents...
Scott S.
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DPlatt
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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby DPlatt » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:16 am

Hey Chris--- Here are a few of my thoughts.
Spring and summer are not the best time to step up to a higher performance wing. The conditions are strong and can be unpredictable and your skills are rusty. This can make it really difficult to get comfortable on a new wing and least case scenario actually hold your flying back or worst case scenario get you into a situation with a bad outcome.
Fall may be a better time, still some good flying days but mellower conditions, and your skills will be sharp. A good time to focus on the wing and not so much the air.
Take the summer to really maximize your current gear and get the most out of your wing and yourself. Get a mentor while doing this, for at least a few flights, plenty of pilots at the hill will do this. Honestly evaluate yourself and your skills. (Speaking for myself, it's usually not my gear holding me back.)
Do your research and narrow down the selection to the wings that excel in the flying characteristics you desire most and fit your all up weight range, where you mainly fly (mountains), conditions you mainly fly in (strong thermic), your personal flying skills and hours flown annually.
Use the summer to test fly.
Utah:
Cloud 9 has Ozone and SOL
SuperFly has Nova, Gin & Advance

Eagle Paragliding has Niviuk, UP & BGD and will ship a demo to you.

I hope this helps.

davidp

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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby jjhildebrand1 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:46 pm

Not claiming to be anywhere near an expert so take with a grain, but my several cents worth, in no particular order...
1. I agree with some of the other comments, and was one of the drivers in my recent decision; was that on my previous wing, I asked myself if I was consistently using bar to get around. I was. Between thermals and on-glide I used it almost exclusively to get to point B, because I was getting frustrated by it's lack of penetration. This meant I was wringing out the performance of my old wing and organically ready to move up the performance curve. Something to consider: your bar usage.
2. Ask yourself not only what your ultimate goal is (to fly more XC as you mentioned), but ask yourself what are the steps to get there. If your current glider satisfies the equipment needs of those steps then why move upward in terms of performance (b/c you risk safety as you move up the spectrum)? If you current glider level won't let you achieve those steps, then maybe a different glider will help. Also, what is the "bigness" of those steps? Our sport requires small steps.
3. Do you have your reactions-comprehension-glider dialed-in wrt emergency maneuvers/SIV? Do all the maneuvers in your old glider. When you have your responses pretty much perfected, then that's another point of thinking about upgrading. So, the question you could ask is, do I have the emergency response skill set to fly a hotter wing? Do I possess those skills for a lower, but gentler, version?
4. Wing-selection wise, The upper ENB category is now blending with the next higher category, which means the reactions and active piloting requirements between a high ENB and low ENC are becoming similar... some wings may get a better score in one area but not be great in another area. From a mostly academic and lab-type setting of glider certification, what they test are not real life conditions and you will hear stories of wings reacting very aggressively, be them ENA or END-CCC because of those real conditions. Like Santa says, a spider can come along and tie our glider in a knot whenever it wants. Not to scare, but to project prudence. However, I do feel that the lower-mid ENB (e.g. Atlas) category is staying true to its roots and are offering very passively safe wings with respectable and dampened reactions, which don't require precise and perfectly timed reactions. Basically, you can get away with some slop and the wing will generally recover nicely.
5. On the same tune to #4, remember, glider certification tests only test the reactions of wings, NOT the inherent passive stability/coherence of a wing. That is where actual flight reports and demo testing gliders comes in.
6. Not to play armchair pilot, but paragliding forum can offer some useful input if you know what, and what not, to look for such as biased/skewed inputs by some disgruntled and/or pessimistic/overly-optimistic pilots. At any rate, you can get a sense for a wing.
7. One last thing, there's a reason some manufactures offer prizes for the ENB category for biggest flights, such as Nova's 200K ION 2 challenge from a few years ago (low ENB category, 200 km was broken within a month or so of them offering the prize). The Atlas is very comparable to the Ion series and could be another alternative. I loved mine and it took me on nice journeys.

Anyway, sorry to drag on!
, ) jake

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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby jjhildebrand1 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:51 pm

Speaking of flight reports and comparisons, Chris...
http://ziadbassil.blogspot.com/
, ) jake

davidhach
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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby davidhach » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:55 pm

Chris: Tyler, one of the newest Lookout pilots, made it to Boulder on his first XC flight a couple weeks ago flying a Nova Ion. (Good piloting) + (capable, low-end B wing) + (great mentoring) = safety and success.

A quote from the end Ziad's EN-B comparison article:
I’m certain that a good pilot can break an XC record with ANY of those superb B gliders from above !
Please pick the one that will make you feel happy under it ….The rest is up to you !


Meaning: pick a wing that you feel comfortable with. You will fly a lot farther on a wing that inspires confidence than on a wing that constantly makes you nervous. It's a lot more fun when you can look around and enjoy the scenery.

Ed Williams
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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby Ed Williams » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:23 am

Some good advice here. I'll add my $0.02. Don't be in a rush to step up. Each step is a huge sacrifice in safety for minimal gains in performance. It's a gamble you are taking with your life. Also in my opinion, at the novice XC pilot level, the glider you are flying has little bearing on your success. How far you go and how safe you are getting there is all about knowledge and good decision making.

Please keep asking for advice, that's what this forum is for.

jjhildebrand1
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Re: Beginner XC Wing?

Postby jjhildebrand1 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:28 am

One thing you'll want to consider, if you upgrade to any ENB level wing, is its into-wind penetration performance. When you can't get to where you want because your glider won't penetrate, then there is a real danger in that situation. Of course, this depends on your typical flying areas and style, and the decisions that lead to that situation. So, when you're testing and looking at gliders, keep in mind how well each penetrates into the wind. Some slice through better, rather than getting plastered and pinned and some in the low-mid ENB category will be better than others, for the same safety. This is one area that higher performance gliders excel but again, like Ed and others said, you trade safety.

Additionally, keep in mind, that yes, you may say that you have bar to get you out of some said situations, but realistically you have to question whether or not you're going to be smashing full bar in turbulent/thermic conditions to get out. So, even though a glider may state a top-end speed on full bar, reduce that speed around 5 mph since you're probably not going to want to use full bar to achieve that speed.
, ) jake


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